On playa when someone gives you a gift you say thank you.
On playa the idea is that you’ll take this “gifting / thank you” mentality off the playa into default world. right?

So… CBliss gifted some ice cream and off playa they were thanked, and some burners took issue with the thank you. is it because they thought the thank you was some form of contracted advertising? or did they realize it wasn’t and are just nitpicking things because for some reason burners aren’t all inclusive as they’d like to think they are?

I’m trying to understand the thought process behind the outrage – burners want non-commodification and they want gifting… Both are Burner Principles.

but it seems here that they are butting heads.

we want you to take your playa experience and change the world… unless your burner experience deals with a brand name or a company. then it’s all back alley thank-yous and hugs that no one can see.

it doesn’t make any sense.

We want you to do this, but when you do, don’t do it publicly, because then your thank you will be construed as a subtle piece of advertising.

What would have been the proper way to thank the ice cream folks for the ice cream in a burner like fashion that wouldn’t have got everyones leather panties in a bunch?

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When I see people going through the effort to do something fun like this, my natural instinct is to say, “why not?” Especially when I see more commercial looking things going on.

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It is ONLY cool enough to allow a few dollars to escape your grasp gladly, rather than the usual grudgingly. It is one of the very least cool things on the playa, pretty much by definition. Good for them for sending the ice cream … imagine they didn’t “throw golden words in advance of their actions”?? How cool would that be?? Imagine great musicians played Burning Man but never bragged it, before or after, so you were never sure who did or was going to??? And if you couldn’t live without the pre-hype or the notch on your belt, that’s just too bad you’re going to have to figure out how to play “anonymously” and get the word out that it’s really you by creative word of mouth, which is way cooler that a cool name playing a cool announced show anyway???? HOW FREAKING COOL WOULD THAT BE?????

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What’s more valuable
— a burner’s ability to INSTANTLY slap a corporate label onto their taste sensation so they can anticipate happy purchases in the future Default World…. WHILE they’re at Burning Man???
– or the occasional burner’s BLOWN MIND when they realize the person who just said that is NOT JOKING?????

You CAN, of course, tell them, just like you can break all the rules in 10,000 tiny ways that don’t really hurt anybody. But you could also make them fight their way through a few minutes of attention paid to why they should appreciate the denial of instant gratification of the question “What is this??” …. you know that question is supposed to be profound, right?? You could give the chemical composition, you could quickly describe the preparation, you could just state “it’s a branded ice cream; when you’re back in the default world, you can ALL-TOO-EASILY look up the True Name of what you’ve just eaten, but for now, tell your friends how great ‘the awesome vegan ice cream at [X] o’clock’ is, because telling them how great ‘Coconut Bliss’ is is arguably uglier than a million moops being blown across the canvas.” You can get even closer to the line by telling them they’ve just eaten Occult Bison’s vegan ice cream, or Cubic Colon’s vegan ice cream …. then when they go to look it up they’ll have to figure out it’s an anagram and then their Default World purchase is made a bit more magical ….

You can do any number of things besides searching for the limit of the letter of the law — lets’ have a discussion to define it precisely!! — the better to violate its spirit.

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if i bring a 24 pack of beer should i take them all out of the box and tape over the cans so people don’t know what i’m drinking, because a can is a form of advertising?

or is it ok that i have a clearly marked can so long as i don’t give any of my beer to anyone?

it’s going to be a pain to peel the labels off of all the wine i’d like to bring.

And as for my gift, i was considering drawing a comic book, based on a poem i’ve written, but from the sound of it, i’d have to give away all original copies, because if i were to go to a company to have it printed i’d suddenly have some crazy corporate backing that isn’t allowed.

Drawing 1000 copies of a 20 page book is quite the feat, and i’d have to quit my job, probably get carpal tunnel, and quite possibly not ever make it to the playa.

So then my gift to the fanatical burner culture would be that my gift didn’t come to fruition because it would have required some sort of default world assistance to produce.

or, i could make a really cool thing, get some copied made and gift it to people that would probably cherish it for years… (i would hope) or knowing you burners, you’d probably light it on fire.

I just got back form Lightning in a Bottle, i had to pay $2-5 for a coconut bliss bar… and here’s a group that raises money, brings a refrigerated truck the middle of the desert and gives this stuff to me for free in an unlabeled package? HOW FREAKING COOL IS THAT?

and so @halcyon thanks these guys off playa (after the fact) and then people find out what it is, go to the ice-cream website of these guys (also after the fact) – because really, who the hell follows and ice-cream blog and then find that they mentioned they’d be at burning man, and some people are up in arms about it. i don’t understand.

I know this from watching loads of videos and reading all these forums:
You’re all very passionate about Burning Man, you’re all watermelons on the same vine.

I hope someone does give me ice-cream when i’m on the playa, hell, i hope someone gives me all sorts of food. because being my first year, i’m pretty sure my diet is going to be some sort of energy bar that comes in multiple flavors and water… or i could re-write that as “Cliff Bar”.

The principles are going to be understood differently be different people, everyone needs to understand that.

Imagine if the Church looked at the Bible and said “THIS IS HOW IT IS WRITTEN THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE!” how much would that suck? people would rebel against it, people would go out into the desert and do things they wouldn’t normally do, they’d light things on fire and…

yeah.

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We are having a camp meeting this weekend to discuss.
I know our intentions have always been loving and the joy shared has been substantial – but I see how the line could get dangerous.

The effort and expense of bringing a frozen treat to the Playa is significant. I certainly have no desire to erase any positives simply because the treat was gifted to us.

We’ll discuss a Kickstarter campaign to purchase treats. We’ll discuss canceling entirely. We’ll discuss if there are ways that we can receive gifts with integrity.

We will continue to gift iced cucumber water and stop thanking anyone who has gifted to us in the past.

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You’re right. Standards are unevenly applied here. Ridiculous contradictions abound. Certain aspects of the “sound art” community seem to take specific pride in bringing “big name” talent to the playa, and it undoubtedly has a halo effect for those DJs/musicians in terms of building reputation/cred (many of whom, as the “sound art” community never tire of pointing out, typically make a shit-ton of money for a single night’s work)

But in this instance, Coconut Bliss is closer to a Snickers bar than it is to a dubstep DJ.

And sure, @Halycon can point to someone who’s a massage therapist benefiting off-playa from contacts made on playa. Loopholes will certainly be available, you don’t have to look that hard.

Personally, I find it kind of ridiculous that I’m coming down on the side of “no ice cream”. Not a situation I typically find myself in.

But the discussion starter in this instance seems to be saying, “I would like to explore how Burning Man can be lived as a year-round thing, and maybe businesses that align with my perception of BM values have something to offer us… if they over-step the mark, the community will push back…..”

(please — tell me if I’ve somehow misunderstood)

And, specifically quoting, “If the advocacy feels like marketing, people will freak out. If it feels like a gift, the community will receive it, or decline it.”

As someone who works in the advertising/marketing world, I have to tell you, if I was sending a couple of palates of , I wouldn’t be doing my job properly if it didn’t feel more like a gift than like marketing.

I would like my marketing to feel as close to zero percent marketing as possible, and ideally 100% gifty.

Which, if done right, would make it like 110% super-effective stealth ninja marketing.

In fact, to quote @Christian, “In choosing to gift the ice cream, I instructed the team to mention that is was vegan and when people asked where it comes from, we would inform our ice cream visitors that our friends at Coconut Bliss supplied it.”

… that’s kind of exactly how I’d want it to go down.

Let me say up front that (as far as I recall) my “core Burning Man years” predated this ’10 Principles’ stuff, and I’ve only been on-and-off in recent years. I’m not specifically attached to them. But to use the original post as a starting point:

“In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.”

Is it me, or does that seem to cover viral marketing?

This does not seem particularly murky to me.

Would “protecting our culture” sometimes mean excluding viral marketing even if the brand’s intentions were broadly-speaking, good?

I realize that swapping hypotheticals and “slippery slope” arguments is tiresome, and I would even on some — most — levels agree that moving someone towards a healthier choice is a more valuable “gift” than another glow-stick with a sticker on it…..

HOWEVER…

Aside from “no marketing — I don’t see how that’s complicated” …. or “you’re opening the door to every viral marketing company that sees burners as a desirable demographic” is this not the year when apparently hordes of first time burners descend upon the playa, all dumb and keen and clueless?

I’m not saying you can’t “teach them the principles of the event” from your Burning Man blog pulpit AND explore how Halycon-approved businesses can pass, camel-like, through the eye of a needle and onto the playa.

But it now really the time to be saying, “those first two things on that Principles list? Very open to wide, wide levels of personal interpretation. Pretty ambiguous to start with and always evolving” ?

To explore some of what @SnicketySnack is saying, if you come to the event, have some eureka moment, bring back some community values to your job, or quit your job and start something new, and do all the “right” things…. treat your people…. your customers….. your suppliers well…

Arguably, the most “Burning Man” thing to do the next time BM comes round?

Leave that shit at home, and respect the marketing-free canvas that allowed you to come up with your product/service/whatever in the first place.

If you want to inspire people to start their own sustainable businesses, run a workshop for people interested in starting their own sustainable businesses.

If you want to advocate for a lifestyle that your financial success depends on, aim a little higher. Find a creative way of doing it that doesn’t quite so closely resemble “commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising” (and that includes anything that resembles “when people asked where it comes from, we would inform our ice cream visitors that our friends at Coconut Bliss supplied it.”)

Don’t lure people in with a product if your intent is to impact people’s future purchasing decisions aroundfthat product category..

In other words, leave no trace, and if it feels like marketing, bring no trace.

Unless you’re basically OK with the whole marketing thing….?

In which case, please, outline your vision of how this works, rather than just saying “I was a bit naive about marketing, but this is an interesting area to explore”. Should there be a commerce village? Who decides when a marketer’s intent is not welcome?

Again, as I’ve noted, even if your business (or your friend’s business or whatever) was “born” on the playa, there are plenty of other events where this stuff would be a better fit.

.

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I would rather buy from, work with, or work for a company that gives to charity, art, and community. I thanked Coconut Bliss (outside of Burning Man) for their donation partially for this reason. There have been many arguments in this thread of why the line with Burning Man/Commercial interaction needs to be absolute and much cleaner. My “desperate distortions” have been an attempt to understand how and if that line can be drawn. (My original video spoke of “intent.”)

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Maybe living in Nashville makes me view things differently, but Infected Mushroom is definitely an international brand. At the same time, they are two artists who I think sincerely enjoy performing in concerts. They have a manager, a record label, infrastructure for touring, a crew to handle an impressive visual backdrop, promoters, posters advertising their shows, professional looking social media pages, fan forums on their website, etc…

The biography on their website says:

“there is the band’s average 120 live performances a year including, repeat, sold-out shows from the Ultra Fest in Miami to the Virgin Festival in Baltimore, from Mexico’s OMIX to Cali’s Coachella, to Brazil’s Ipanema Beach, and from Melbourne’s Metro Club to the 2009 and 2011 Burningman Festival in Black Rock City, Nevada … Their adoring fans continue to descend below Infected’s stage en masse at festivals and stadiums shows–Nocturnal Wonderland (Texas/Los Angeles), World Electronic Music Festival (WEMF) in Canada, Electric Daisy Carnival (Las Vegas, Nevada), and the Opulent Temple at Burning Man (Black Rock City, Nevada)”

Burning Man is mentioned more than any other festival.

The only reason that Infected Mushroom is not an LLC or a Corporation (as far as I know) is that the music industry is not structured that way. The record labels, venues, and promoters that they contract with generally handle the liability, but the name of Infected Mushroom clearly has market value and is actively promoted.

In comparison, The Coconut Bliss is owned by Bliss Unlimited, which is an LLC and NOT a corporation. If you are going to make money providing food, then you are pretty foolish not to form an LLC or some other legal entity. The principals of the company appear to be just Larry and Luna, they are actually people – you can see their faces on the website.

I don’t mean to “call out” Infected Mushroom, I use it is just a case study of sorts, and I am pretty certain that other large acts playing at 10 and 2 would look very similar.

There is no faceless corporation here. Are Larry and Luna not allowed to give away ice cream to burner friends just because they make a living producing ice cream? If not, then why are Amit and Erez allowed to add the concert to their tour calendar on the official website?

Again, nothing against Infected Mushroom – I just find it interesting how standards are unevenly applied.

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